//  More on "Heaven" and Townes Van Zandt.  - MF

From: Jerry Enright (fasolaman@pipeline.com)                      
Subject: Re: heaven (4 cents worth)                                  

        Dear Nanuits --

        It's not clear that we're all that far apart on this "meaning"
thing, but since the thread has finally pushed a long-dormant hot-button
(from my philosophy grad school days), I thought I'd offer my holiday
four-cents worth:

        1. There is, as many have said, (generally) no single meaning
to a song. Any meaning that is supportable by the words is a meaning of
the song. It may not be what the author "intended"--assuming that he/she
actually knew what the song "meant," or even intended a single meaning, nor
what the performer "intended." So what? I've never been convinced that we
can know what the author of a song or poem really meant, nor am I sure that
we really care.  Which leads me to:

        2. There is no objective criterion for a "great" song.  Sure, I can
give you a bunch of "rules" (just give me a few minutes to make them up)
why, for instance, LNGH is a better song than, say, "heaven," but the fact
of the matter is that one song really grabs me (for reasons that I may or
may not care to reveal, if I even understand them) and the other one
doesn't. At least not today....

        Having said this, I have no problem with people saying they like or
don't like a particular song or particular Nanci version of it because....
I find the heaven/suicide discussion fascinating, esp. when reasons are
given (thanks to John Hodges & others). And I won't be offended if you think
my favorite Nanci songs are duds. It just tells me that your interests lie
elsewhere.

        3. And for an extra penny's worth: one of *my* favorite aspects of
"folk music" is the way it implicitly honors the natural voice. So while I
can appreciate opinions that singers such as Nanci/Iris/et al. are too
twangy/whiney/etc., I would rather hear what I consider their natural voices
than singers with "trained" voices.

        I'm wearing my hiking boots as I type this, so if you disagree with
me, don't worry about stepping on my toes ;). When we stick to the music, as
we usually do, our disagreements usually generate more light than heat.

        Jerry "don't you wish I could afford an e-mail
                program with typo-correction?" Enright

 
_________________________________________________________________
 
From: Jerry Enright (fasolaman@pipeline.com)                      
Subject: Patty Loveless (no Nanci content)                           

        Nanuits --

        The Sunday Trib had a nice little review of Patty Loveless that made
her sound like someone who would appeal to Nanci fans, but I don't recall
ever reading her name in "recommended" lists.

        Can anyone offer an opinion pro or con?

        Feel free to respond off-list.

        Thanks,

                Jerry


//  One of the best Nashville-style country singers around, that's all.
//  _When Fallen Angels Fly_ is highly recommended.  - MF 
_________________________________________________________________
 
From: Bill Peete (billpeet@cruzio.com)                            
Subject: Holiday Tape Exchange                                       

Howdy Folks,

For each of the last two years, we have held a "Holiday Tape Exchange" that
turned out to be a lot of fun. If anyone is interested in doing the same
thing this year, you may participate by letting me know, and then making a
100 (or 90 if you prefer) minute tape of some of your favorite *NON* Nanci
tunes.

If you would like to participate this year, reply to this message, by
December 8, 1997. When replying, be sure to change the address from:

nanci@world.std.com

to:

billpeet@cruzio.com

In other words, private e-mail, so's not to clutter up the list. A simple "I
want in" is sufficient. I will confirm your entry by replying with a simple
"ok".

As in previous years, I will toss all the participants names into my Nanci
"Flyer" hat and
will draw names to determine who gets who's tape. Witnesses will be present.
Within a few days, of December 8, I'll post one public message that tells
you who to send your tape to.

Holiday Cheers,

-bill
 
_________________________________________________________________
 
From: Blake Marshall (bmarshall@worldnet.att.net)                 
Subject: NittyGritty Christmas - NC / SC                             

For the North and South Carolina area,
the Nitty Gritty Christmas will be broadcast
this coming Saturday, December 6 at 10:55pm
on WNSC, PBS channel 30 (Rock Hill??).

Also, WUNG (I can't remember the channel - 58 maybe?)
has already run two of what I think is a 6 part series that
is great!  It's "Arthur Smith - Then and Now" (or Now and Then??)
which is on Saturday at 9:00pm.  Those of you from here may
know that Arthur Smith is a local folk/bluegrass celeb. He had
a show here for many years. They have taken clips from over the
years, and pieced them together with some new songs, brief interviews
with other celebs (national and local), etc and made a really great
show.  I had thought it would be ongoing, but now it appears to
be only a six parter.  Check it out.

Blake

 
_________________________________________________________________
 
From: Paul Yamashita (pyama@charm.net)                            
Subject: Re: townes (not much nanci content)                         

Hi everyone:

I hope everybody had a wonderful Thanksgiving! I just got back from a
great trip to Virginia Beach, and I've been catching up with all my
NanciNet mail.

I've got a couple of comments about Robert's comments last Wednesday about
Townes.

> I am simply at a loss to try and explain why names like Guy Clark, David
> Olney, Loretta Lynn, Bob Dylan, Hank Williams, Steve Earle, Bill
> Staines, and Woody Guthrie come up so rarely here...
Let me just say in defense of us young 'uns on this list that we -- well,
I, anyway -- are familiar with Hank and Dylan and Woody and Earle. Thanks
largely to Iris DeMent, I've really fallen in love with old-time country,
and I've been having a blast discovering the Carter Family, Hazel and
Alice, Kitty Wells, the Louvin Brothers, et al.

If I had to explain why folks like Woody Guthrie and Bob Dylan don't show
up on many lists, I'd say it's because their stature and influence are so
great that we just take them for granted. It's like when my friends ask me
for recommendations for good rock and roll bands: I tend to tell them
about the more obscure stuff I like (e.g. Love and Money, the Iguanas, Los
Lobos), and I neglect to mention the greats (e.g. the Beatles, the Stones,
the Kinks). *Of course* you should listen to the Beatles; that's a given.
Same with Bob Dylan.

Re: "Tecumseh Valley":
> But the real kicker is that the name Townes Van Zandt *only* comes up
> when someone mentions Nanci evoking his name in concert and poster after
> poster goes on and on about how "Tecumseh Valley" pulls him or her down
> into emotional turmoil and despair, leaving them all teary-eyed.  C'mon,
> people, do you really think this is ALL Nanci?!! The words and melodies
> don't have ANYTHING to do with what that song does to you?!

First, let me confess that I'm not at all that familiar with Townes. The
only song of his that I know really well is, of course, "Tecumseh Valley."
I first heard TV on OVOR, and then again on Steve Earle's marvelous _Train
A Comin'_ CD. Seeing as how two of my favorite singer-songwriters like TV
so much, I've listened to it pretty carefully, and I still can't say that
song does anything for me.

There are two lines in particular that bug me: "So she turned to whorin'
out on the streets/ with all the lust inside her." Lust? I just can't
imagine Caroline feeling randy after she's just learned that "her dreams
were denied/ her pa had died." Is that line supposed to be ironic? I
can't make sense of it.

The other thing I really don't like about the song is that it's a
narrative non sequitur. In one verse, Caroline is out whoring, and in the
next, she's dead. What happened? I've heard on NanciNet that Townes
explained that she died of a back-alley abortion, but there's no way you
could figure it out from the lyrics. This reminds me of a Paula Cole song
they play a lot on the radio these days, "I Don't Want to Wait":

He showed up all wet
on the rainy front step
wearing shrapnel in his skin.
And the war he saw,
lives inside him still....

The years pass by,
And now he has granddaughters.

Huh? That song starts out wonderfully, describing the torment of a young
wife waiting for her husband to return from the war ("every heartbeat
stinging/ when she thought it was God calling her") and how the young
soldier has changed. And then -- poof! -- now they have grandkids. What
happened in between?!? I find it very disappointing to be set up for a
story, and then being fast forwarded to "the end."

My impression of Townes based on "Tecumseh Valley" is pretty similar to my
impression so far of Paula Cole: promising, but not promising enough for
me to want to investigate much further. How does "Tecumseh Valley" rank in
Townes' oeuvre? Is this his best?


--Paul "crotchety gen-x .edu/lit type" Yamashita
 
_________________________________________________________________
 
From: Jing Tan (jtan@infinet.net.au)                              
Subject: Re:Other artists/Crowded House/etc                          

Hiya possums,

>Wow, I can't believe someone else is a Crowded House fan!!! Much )overlooked b
nd that I recommend as well. Neil Finn is quite good at )writing songs that cap
ure relationships in a few words.

Cue for me to delurk :) Neil Finn is probably one of the best
songwriters in the pop idiom. For first timers, you probably can't go
wrong if you were to get 'Recurring Dream', their 'best of' compilation.

As most of the singers that have been mentioned are nearly all
Americans, I reckon I'll throw in a few non-American names: Richard
Thompson, Norma Waterson, Billy Bragg, Christy Moore, Maura O'Connell,
Kate & Anna McGarrigle, and Kate Rusby (solo) and Kathryn Roberts.

Those who are slightly more adventurous, how about trying these two
Aussie singer-songwriters: Archie Roach and Paul Kelly? Their sense of
the narrative is as good, if not better than, dare I say it, Dar
Williams (any Dar-lings who are loitering in Nancinet, rest assured, Dar
is still tops with me). Give me a holler if anyone is interested in
these two artistes.

>But for pure lyricism, you have to like Ms. Dar Williams as one of the >new pu
s. Just last night i dreamed i was at the last Nanci/BMO concert >(again) and i
saw Dar in the crowd with an oversized chihuahua on her >lap. I hadn't showered
in two days but went over to say howdy anyway >because she doesn't come around
hese parts often enough, and to pet >that oversized mutt of hers. "Be careful,"
she warned, "he isn't lawn >trained yet." As the Griffith band stacked themselv
s up in three neat >rows to sing  a gospel version of "The Way We Were," Dar an
 i chatted >till she agreed that i needed a shower and i remembered i owed her
fifty bucks and went to the parking lot to get it. Gosh, this is >starting to s
und like an oddduck on vitamin C post

Hey, how come this Dar-dream hasn't appeared in the Dar-list yet? :)
Those who are still Dar-less in their life, please, please, please, I
implore you to check her out! Once listened, twice smittened. Dorothy
(Dar's given name) will be in the Land of Oz in March, so for this
punter at least, life's currently lived with sweet anticipation...

Hey Mark, how come Michelle Shocked is not on the list? I know I'm
saying this for the rest of the people in the Dar channel, hey we miss
ya, matey! Come on in and have a chat sometime...

Jing Khoon
 
_________________________________________________________________
 
From: David Bronsveld (dbrons@mindspring.com)                     
Subject: Re: townes (not much nanci content)                     

>How does "Tecumseh Valley" rank in
>Townes' oeuvre? Is this his best?
 I don't really know. I love the Nanci/Arlo "Tecumseh Valley",
but I can't help noticing its similarity to "Louise", a song
I'd heard from Linda Ronstadt almost 20 years earlier.  Anyone
else notice this?
Dave

_________________________________________________________________
 
From: David Bronsveld (dbrons@mindspring.com)                     
Subject: Re: heaven (Dr. Jack's view)                            

>But with
>recreational literature, poetry or songs, I much prefer the influence of
>my perspective. Sometimes I listen to music just to vegetate, but at
>other times I like listening to what the songs tell me about myself.
>And the great thing about Nanci's music is that I can almost always
>apply her songs on a personal level.
>Does any of that make sense?
 Yes, Shawn, it sure does. This has been interesting.  I had never thought
of "Heaven" as being about suicide.  I'd always considered it to be about
the desire to escape from reality.  It's kind-of the same way I feel about
Nanci's, "A Year Down in New Orleans".  The desire to return to a safe place
that we once knew.
 This is, very much, Nanci, as viewed through my own experiences.  I'll never
forget the first song I heard Nanci sing.  I had just moved into an apartment
of my own after going through treatment,  for drug addiction.  I had been
"clean" for almost a year, at that point, but I was still struggling to find my
way.  Well, Nanci came on the TV, and sang:

And when this winter's over,
You're gonna walk knee-deep in clover
And your heart will round the corner,
You're gonna feel brand new

 I don't think Nanci intended ACBSF to be about "recovery", but it gave me hope
that day, and I'll always think of it in that way.
 That was 10 years ago, and it has been a very good time. Nanci's music has
enriched my new life, and I often put my own philosophical "spin", on her 
songs.
LNGH,So Long Ago, and On Grafton Street, spring to mind as several that help
remind me where I've been, and how thankful I am for what I have today.
Hope everyone had a real nice holiday,
Dave
 
_________________________________________________________________
 
From: Bill Page (bpage@scctel.com)                                
Subject: Parodies                                                    

The irrepresible John Q. Hodges treated us this weekend to a new parody.
While this well-written new lyric shows us just how sick a puppy the
sky-scraping Hodges really is, it also offers a rare opportunity to compare
two similar takes on the same song. Simultaneously, it reminds us that
there are a plethora of Nanci parodies to be enjoyed (endured?) by those
interested in this (dubious) art form.

The new-guitar-calloused-fingered-and-still-honeymooning Amy "I can't
believe she cooked a turkey" McKibbin maintains the unofficial NanciNet
parodies page. While it may not have the very latest parodies (ie, those
from Gin and John), it remains otherwise comprehensive. At this site, you
can compare Hodges' new parody to my 1996 offering, "These Days with a
Gourmet Cook."

The parody page can be found at:
http://www.netpath.net/~isaac/parodies.html

Bill "I knew Fox would mess up the credits on Annabelle's Wish" Page

_________________________________________________________________
 
From: Norbert.Killich@t-online.de (Norbert Killich)               
Subject: seven                                                       

Hi everyone,

well, here's my first parody, but before you read it, you need to recall what
the Nancinumber game (which was a thread on the Nancinet a while ago) was all
about. It worked like this: an artist who has had the privilege of singing or
playing together with Nanci has a Nancinumber of "1". An artist who has sung or
played with someone who is a "1" has a Nancinumber of "2" and so on...

 Seven    ("Heaven")

My Nancinumber's seven
that's why I wear a frown
I sing along in concerts
but that just does not count
Maybe they talk about me,
"What's with the guy who cries?"
"His Nancinumber's seven."
a lucky one replies

My Nancinumber's seven
and that is just not fair
causing a lot of troubles
I'm in complete despair
Thinking that I'm someone who
    no matter how hard he tries
always will be a seven
brings tears to my eyes

But I'll survive, I don't look back,
listen to "Flyer",
won't skip a single track
maybe I am a seven,
but here's something that might
release me from my misery,
help me endure my plight
in fact it's really simple
maybe it's even wise
compared to an eleven
seven is mighty nice


Norbert "don't tell me it's still sappy" Killich

_________________________________________________________________
 
From: Cynthia Courtney (courtney@mpi.com)                         
Subject: other nancis                                                

Robert,

In Nancinet Digest 97B30, you write:

>I am simply at a loss to try and explain why names like Guy Clark, David
>Olney, Loretta Lynn, Bob Dylan, Hank Williams, Steve Earle, Bill
>Staines, and Woody Guthrie come up so rarely here...

I'm not sure how long you have been a member of Nancinet, but the above
artists as well as Townes, are mentioned frequently by members of this list,
both for Nanci's connection to them and their influence on her, and as
artists in their own right.  It's true that they haven't been mentioned much
in this latest "thread," but that may be because this thread, or variations
thereof, has cropped up on the list several times, and many long-time
listmembers have already posted on this subject previously.  I wouldn't take
the current thread as necessarily being a representative sample of who
Nancinetters consider to be their favorite singer-songwriters (although I
certainly do agree with some of the names mentioned), especially since some
of the posts have been more of a "hey, check out so-and-so," rather than
"this artist should be in the Nancinet hall-of-fame."

Cindy Courtney
courtney@mpi.com
Natick, MA
 
_________________________________________________________________
 
From: Beth Herron (bherron@asgnet.psc.sc.edu)                     
Subject: Musings                                                     

Just reading some of the posts about Blue Roses from the Moon - when I
first bought it, I had a non-reaction to it.  I didn't dislike it, but
at the same time, I didn't play it over and over again as I did when I
bought most of Nanci's other albums (I mean, I didn't take Flyer out of
the CD player for months!)  In fact, after purchasing it, I didn't
listen to it again until the day I saw her in concert at the end of
 September - just so that I would be familiar with the tracks.  In
concert, however, I gained  new appreciation for the songs.  Still, I
haven't listened to the album much at all.  I agree that it is not a
particularly well-recorded album.  Of course, when I first listened to
"Storms," I didn't have much of a feeling either, and now it is one of
my "more favorite" Nanci albums.  All in all, though, I think Blue
 Roses from the Moon will go on my shelf along with Late Night Grande
Hotel, albums which I enjoy on rare occasions but which I wouldn't
rescue from a burning house, either (which I might some of her other
stuff).

Beth

_________________________________________________________________
 
From: bobmcbob@clubhouse.email.net                                
Subject: more on Townes...                                           

If you want to know what it feels like to hear Townes Van Zandt play his
guitar solo on a small stage, seek out a copy of "Rear View Mirror." He was
hawking it when I saw him at the Cactus Cafe in Austin a few years ago. I
bought the album and it was like being back in the audience. I believe it was
recently re-released.

later--bob (who definitely will find his way into the Austin City Limits
tribute to Townes this Sunday)
 
_________________________________________________________________
 
From: Michael Wilt (mwilt@smp.org)                                
Subject: Tecumseh Valley                                             

Just some thoughts and musings. I'm not trying to say anything
definitive here, or to impose my opinions on anyone.

When I listen to Tecumseh Valley I picture this story as taking place in
the late 1800's or early 1900's; the choice of the word "lust" may take
on different shades in that context. Caroline is in despair, she has no
one to turn to. To survive she turns to prostitution. To do so she must
draw on all the lust inside her (I'm defining lust as a natural human
characteristic, as is passion; but unlike passion lust exists on a
purely physical level, it has no heart), for in her despair she has no
heartfelt desire for sex or men. Selling sex (i.e., using her lust) is
merely a means to survive. (As an analogy you might consider a married
couple for whom the passion is gone--lust might be the only thing that
brings them together physically.) So Caroline is one damn sad woman, not
a randy bone in her body, drawing on her natural, physical sexual
instincts in order to survive.

  As for that narrative non-sequitur, I love it, cuz I'm allowed to fill
in the blanks. I see Caroline as a suicide, hanging herself beneath the
stairs (by looping the rope around a hook near the top; I think I must
have this image from a Dickens novel or somewhere). She's lost
everything--family, home, personal integrity--and so she ends it. The
back-alley abortion interpretation came, if I recall, not from Townes
but from Nanci. I happen to disagree with it (on literary, not
ideological, grounds). I see Caroline as a victim of despair brought on
by poverty ("the coal was low") and utter loneliness ("her dreams were
denied").

  So, even though there may be "no way you could figure it out from the
lyrics," the writer gives us plenty of material from which to make
inferences, and we'll all read and hear it it many different ways.

  Paul Y. also wondered if this is among Townes's best songs. I've
listened to a lot of his songs and love many of them, but there is
something about Tecumseh Valley that just totally gets me. I'm not one
for getting into superlatives, but there are days that I think of it as
the best goddam song ever written. I think my reaction has to do with
Caroline, who is drawn with such sparse lines that she could be anyone.
And I'm also struck by this unknown narrator--"The name she gave. . .",
he (she?) says, as if there might be some question about Caroline's
veracity regarding her own name. But by the same token, "her way was
free, and it seemed to me that sunshine walked beside her." He holds her
in high regard, but who is he? Did he love her? From up close, or from
afar? Old or young? I have my own answers to these questions, and of
course they cannot be definitive for anyone but me because the Tecumseh
Valley that I hear is not the Tecumseh Valley you hear.

Non-definitively,

Michael "just another 'wannabe an English major' morning here" Wilt
 
_________________________________________________________________
 
From: Kim Cline (threebf@pacbell.net)                             
Subject: Re: townes (not much nanci content)                     

Dear Paul,
I had a problem with that "so she turned to whorin line" as well when working
on this song for my 40th birthday. I had an impressionable 7yr. old around
alot at the time, so we sang "so she turned to bowlin".
    The song makes perfect sense to me.  Townes, though very funny at times
had a very dark side.  Going from despair to death in a line or two is not so
far fetched.  It might have been on the net, but I recall a story about a
Townes concert where a woman yelled up to him, "play some happy songs" and he
replied, "Lady...these  are my happy songs".
Regards
Kim Cline

_________________________________________________________________

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