// Okay, folks, I'd like to make this the last digest to discuss the 
// censorship issue. Twenty subscribers have left the list since Tuesday;
// there may be a different reason--people leave every day, and new folks
// arrive--but that many in three days is uncommon. So if everyone's had
// a chance to have his/her say, let's let this one die, if we can.
// For the record, I recognize that the idea of "censorship" is not one
// that any of us like, including myself. And while I didn't really
// think that what I was doing was censorship (if, for example, I had
// noted that this was an extremely long post, and that I had edited 
// part of it, no one would have commented), my smart-mouth comment
// certainly made it appear to be that. So my apologies where needed.
// Now -- this digest has a lot about freedom of speech, a lot about
// Lucinda Williams, hardly anything about Nanci...
// I'd say "enjoy," but...[BP

_________________________________________________________________


Subject: Re: NN: Fundamentally Loathsome
             Shawn Kimbro (kimbro@planetc.com>

Okay, okay, 

The point is, no one woulda' given a second thought to Troy's inclusion
of Marilyn Manson if Bill hadn't chosen to publicly announce his
objections.  So once again, the group's very cultivated image has paid
off in lots of free publicity.  I support Marilyn Manson's right to
perform as they please, and I support Bill Page's right to censor
anything he wants in the digest.  And I support my right to get drunk
and try to watch the meteor shower except that every time I look up, I
fall down.  (Just 'cause I have a right, doesn't mean it's a good idea!)

Oh, btw Bill.  One of my top albums has songs about rape, murder,
gratuitous sex, illegal whiskey, child abuse, demon possession, and
there's even cussing in the title... Can I still include Gillian's cd?

(grin>
-Shawn



_________________________________________________________________


Subject: NN: just the facts
   From: nannynan@earthling.net

Shawn worte:
> I support Marilyn Manson's right to
>perform as they please
 Actually, Maralyn Manson is a he, not a they.

Nancy with a Y
The words of the prophets are written on the subway walls.  And Benjamen
Sisko is the Emmisary of the Prophets.



_________________________________________________________________


Subject: NN: Lucinda Williams at Carnegie Hall
   From: bb574@freenet.carleton.ca (Andree Cooligan)

Does anyone kmow the song LW played at the Folkways 50th anniversary
celebration at Carnegie Hall, May 1, 1998?
Please email privately.

Andree 

--
A.N. Cool
bb574@freenet.carleton.ca


_________________________________________________________________


Subject: NN: NG in Canada
   From: bb574@freenet.carleton.ca (Andree Cooligan)

Is Nanci playing in Canada soon?  Has she ever played here?
Please email privately
Andree

--
A.N. Cool
bb574@freenet.carleton.ca


_________________________________________________________________


Subject: NN: Re: "Censorship"
   From: BMiller224@aol.com

I feel like I should jump in here on the "censorship" issue, since I have been
involved in discussions about it before, and my name has already come up in
this one.

First, thanks to those who have mentioned they have enjoyed seeing some my
posts.  I've made several friends that I first got to know through the
NanciNet.  As several people have said, it was always about more than the
music.  I know I've made more than my share of forgettable posts, too.  But
thanks for the compliments.

Second, I want to applaud Bill Page's management of the NN.  The volume and
quality of discussion has picked up dramatically in the last few weeks, and
Bill has been giving direction to the discussion while encouraging an open
exchange.

I also want to support the comments of Susan Krauss and others who have
pointed out that the format of the NanciNet allows for a focused digest, as
well as a more open "discussion" list.  As I understand it, most subscribers
are digest-only.  Those who receive the more general list will get a lot more
e-mail, letting them take part in a more free-wheeling discussion but also
getting a lot more messages in which they may have no interest.

Since the discussion over screening (or "censorship") on the NN a year ago, I
think I have been consistent in saying that I favored the concept of using
filters to block commercial spam or gratuitous obscenity.  And I would be in
favor of dropping anyone from the list who was consistently abusive to other
participants.

I don't want to start a new discussion about the Promise Keepers, though my
name is apparently forever linked with them on the NanciNet.  The reason I
brought up that subject a year ago was that the group was very prominently in
the news at the time due to a large weekend event they had in Washington.  And
a number of topics were being discussed in connection with that event that we
had also talked about on the NanciNet previously.

I was genuinely curious what other participants thought about it.  Just so
there's no misunderstanding, I have concerns about some of the social and
religious views espoused by that group.  But several people I know and respect
have been involved with it, and my own view is that the fears of some of the
group's critics are probably exaggerated.

I think that everyone should respect the guidelines of the list and try to
keep their posts related to matters that would be of interest to other NN
participants.  If Bill thinks we're getting too far off-topic, I assume he
will tell us so.  People also have the option of making "backchannel"
responses if they want to pursue more tangential themes that come up.  And the
current list format does indeed offer the option of getting the digest, into
which Bill has obviously been putting a good deal of thought and effort, or
getting the more open "discussion" list.

Bruce Miller
San Bruno, CA

// Folks, Bruce sent another post on this topic that I just don't have room
// in this digest to post. Those of you on the unmoderated list received it.
// Those on digest only who would like it can request it from me or from him.
// This is a space-only issue...[BP]
_________________________________________________________________


Subject: Re: NN: Lucinda Williams
   From: HEYJC01@aol.com

If LW 'Car Wheels' is not, in many peoples opinion, here best, then what is?
Im new to her music and would like to now which CD to purchase first.
Thanks 
Jeff


_________________________________________________________________


Subject: Re: NN: Lucinda Williams
   From: "Hans Janssen" (hjanssen@mail.dotcom.fr>

Hello Jeff,

IMHO Car wheels.... is her best, but as option to buy first try the third:
"Lucinda Williams" , this one is recently re-released with 6 or 7 bonus
tracks on Koch.

Hans


_________________________________________________________________


Subject: NN: what the?????
   From: Scaryxxx@aol.com

HEY does anybody remember Nanci Griffith and her music??????? Where does all
this crap end and usefull info start to be exchanged again.
please excuse that last outbreak. Gary


_________________________________________________________________


Subject: NN: Censorship - Not all bad
   From: Idolyrics@aol.com

To our Nanci Editor,

I would have done the same thing.  

First of all, this is a Nanci board.  

Second, there will always be someone to stir the pot of controversy.

Keep up the GOOD work.

Ben

_________________________________________________________________

Subject: Re: NN: Lucinda Williams
   From: John Alvord (jalvo@cloud9.net>

> If LW 'Car Wheels' is not, in many peoples opinion, her best, then what is?
> I'm new to her music and would like to know which CD to purchase first.
> Thanks 
> Jeff

My suggested start is "Sweet Old World"  
_________________________________________________________________

Subject: Re: NN: Freedom of Speech on the NanciNet
   From: Steven Teich (teich@ohsu.edu>

well, i'll try to make this short.  the heart of the issue, i believe, is
fairness to digest recipients.  

i give bill a lot of credit for owning up to what he did and why, but i also
believe that what he did was wrong.  the fair thing would have been to post the
top top 10 list, which includes marilyn manson.  why fair?  because
nanci-netters have made it clear that year-end top ten lists are germane.  and
because digest readers can and should fairly expect  to receive germane posts
that aren't too long ( by excising the other 4 lists, the original post would
have been short enough).

those who say digest recipients can always choose to receive the unmoderated
list miss the point of why people choose the digest and what their legitimate
expectations are.  

maybe the best way to express all of this is to ask you to imagine what you'd
think if a list moderator for another singer made it a policy not to post to the
list's digest any top ten list  that included nanci.  not very hard to imagine,
given nanci's outspokenness.  not very appealing, given our oft-proclaimed
support for nanci and her politics.   and not very fair to those hypothetical
digest recipients who might otherwise never hear of her.

bottom line: if you're gonna include year-end top tens in the digest, include
everyone's.  no one assumes that posting a top ten list means the moderator
endorses its selections.

--steve "so who's marilyn manson, anyway?" teich
teich@ohsu.edu


_________________________________________________________________


Subject: Maggie
   From: Tina Shackleford (tina-shackleford@uiowa.edu>

Hey guys -- does anyone have an update on Maggie?

Petting my kitty's long tail,
Tina
Tina Shackleford
Production Stage Manager, Department of Theatre Arts
University of Iowa
tina-shackleford@uiowa.edu


_________________________________________________________________


Subject: NN: What happened to Nanci?
   From: Suzanne Jameson (sqcomps@azstarnet.com>

I think I'm on the wrong list.  Could someone tell me where the Nanci
Griffith list is, please.  Posts from Marilyn Manson and Promise Keepers
are enough to make me jump ship.


_________________________________________________________________


Subject: NN: Maggie
   From: Susan Peete (suepeete@cruzio.com>

At 11:51 AM 11/19/98 -0600, Tina Shackleford wrote:
>Hey guys -- does anyone have an update on Maggie?

Maggie is making steady progress. She goes to Pulmonary Rehab sessions and
lungers  support group meetings. She uses a 3 wheel electric scooter when
needed. The doctors are still adjusting her medications. She is eating
better and her spirits are rising. 
Maggie is working her way to the light beyond the woods. Hopefully she won't
hit too many bumps in the road. She could still use are help, more than ever.

Here...kitty, kitty, kitty

Susan Peete

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*MUSIC BY CANDLELIGHT* CDs
http://www.cruzio.com/~billpeet/MusicByCandlelight
"THERE'S A LIGHT BEYOND THESE WOODS MARY MARGARET"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


_________________________________________________________________


Subject: NN: self-editted for your protection
   From: raj@inspace.net

  I finally picked up Nanci's "Other Voices" book on Sunday,
and I'm very pleased with it.  Heed not the nay sayers, it's
worth the price just for the pictures.  The varied
perspectives on some of the OVOR and OV2 songs are quite
tasty.  It was $19.95 at Border's.
  Speaking of Border's, folk singer Bob Rafkin will be
appearing there (in Orlando) Nov. 27.  I mention that
because a week or so ago in my notes on the Wings and
Strings Festival I brain cramped and renamed him Bob Larkin.
Now, Larkin is a good guy (he counts beans at my office) but
he can't sing a lick.  Bob Rafkin is a very good singer
/songwriter /guitarist and his stuff is poignant and often
humorous.  So, if your in town for the Thanksgiving week-end
and you're getting tired of the Disney's Mouse House, give
him a listen.  If you are lucky, you can get Bob's little
girl to sing along with him.
  A word on the censorship issue.  If you've been paying
attention, you'll [CENSORED][CENSORED] recognize this as all
part [CENSORED][CENSORED] of the Remix conspiracy!

Bob J (raj@inspace.net)

_________________________________________________________________


Subject: NN: Re: Maggie
   From: Virginia (ginrosej@bellsouth.net>

>Hey guys -- does anyone have an update on Maggie?

If anyone else is interested, I've been posting updates in "Maggie's
Transplant Diary" http://www.candlelist.org/diary.html

Hugs,
Gin (trying to keep the dog away from my kitties' long tails) Rose


_________________________________________________________________


Subject: NN: what's the fuss?
   From: Claire Keaveney (Keaveney@pacbell.net>

Hi, all --
I've been lurking on and off for the past year or so, so
maybe I missed something -- I certainly missed the thread on
the Promise Keepers, and I'm kicking myself, because I
always enjoy Bruce's posts and I'd love to see what would
get Oddduck's feathers so ruffled!

Anyway, I have been reading the digests since Bill started
sending them so regularly (thanks, Bill), and I thought the
whole "censored post" thing was a joke! Somebody put Marilyn
Manson's album on his list and Bill "censored" it and then
*said* he had censored the Marilyn Manson album!

Truly, I think it was a joke, and people are getting
unnecessarily worked up. And it must be hard on Bill, who is
new and doing a great job out of the goodness of his heart
for us.

Claire
_________________________________________________________________

Subject: NN: Re: your mail
   From: John Alvord (jalvo@cloud9.net>

> Hey guys -- does anyone have an update on Maggie?

maggie has had the (single) lung transplant. She is currently living in
hospital "on-campus" housing where she ha easy access to physical therapy
and emergency servics. There was one severe rejection crisis about a week
after which was solved by adjusting medications.

Now all she has to worry about is getting better, and about raising the
enormous amout of money to pay for the deeductable and for the medication
costs. There are a bunch of us helping in the effort, see

     http://www.candlelist.org

for details. We have a online record store, a celebrity cookbook including
Elizabeh Taylor, Emma Thompson, Bob Hope, and moi! Some of us send $$$
directly each month (tax deductable). There is a portal to amazon.com
where you can buy records and boks and maggie gets from 5 to 15 per cent.

And we are always looking for more "friends of maggie" and teaching her
and us the true meaning of "There's a light Beyond These Woods".

John Alvord
Music, Management, Poetry and more...
           http://www.candlelist.org/kuilema
Cheap CDs @ http://www.cruzio.com/~billpeet/MusicByCandlelight

_________________________________________________________________


Subject: NN: Top Ten shows...
  From: SPINYN@aol.com

Well, hope this isn't jumping the gun, but when I assemble my Top Ten list for
the year, I also do it for the best shows I saw that year. Feel free to
censure this or post it as isLOL.

1. Bob Dylan/Van Morrison

We got this show TWICE in the Bay Area this year. The first time, May in San
Jose, was heavily hyped and much anticipated and Bob Dylan delivered an
astonishingly focused and powerful performance. The next time round in
September was much less hyped and this time, Van stole the show with a crisp
ever-building set that concluded with The Man leaving the stage shouting
"SOUL!" over and over into his hand-held mic as the crowd erupted in cheers.
Almost 40 years into the game, these two masters just keep on keeping on.

Oh, we also got Joni Mitchell and Lucinda Williams to boot...

2. Phil And Friends - The Fillmore, SF 8.8

Immediately following the highly successful Further Festival tour, Phil went
to the Fillmore with a stripped down band, with Bob Weir and the sublime Steve
Kimock on guitar, and blew the house down. A PACKED Fillmore crowd responded
like it was The Grateful Dead in 1966 and the ad hoc unit responded with some
thrilling jamming. This night has already become legendary in Deadhead
circles.

3. Furthur Festival - Shoreline Ampitheater,  Friday 7.24

After a tumultuous period settling on the right guitarist, ending up with two
days before their tour was to begin, The Other Ones were hitting on all
cylinders when they returned home to Shoreline and the opening Friday night
show is said to be the best musically of the whole tour. A 3-hour tour de
forcewith new members fitting in with the Grateful Dead guys like a comfy
shoe. An unbelievable return to the magic of the Grateful Dead. You can bet
music from this night will end up on The Other Ones CD coming out in January.

4. Fleadh Festival - San Jose

Nanci's last show at the Warfield was excellent, but she was also a highlight
of this wonderful day. There was more good music than a person could take in,
but I saw lovely performances by Paul Brady and Richard Thompson in the
smaller tent and great sets from Nanci, The Chieftains, Los Lobos, Sinead
O'Conner, and Tracy Chapman on the Main Stage. It helps having Bill Graham
Presents involved, as the facility was set up very comfortably. Good value for
money, as they say in England.

5. Monterey Jazz Festival

Too many great acts to single out, but the highlights included Joe Zawinul's
smoking Zawinul Syndicate playing hypnotic-ambient-world beat-trance jazz,
Tracy Nelson, Marcia Ball and the amazing Irma Thomas doing their "Sing It!"
CD, Dave Brubeck's emotional appearance featuring his son's stunning drum solo
in "Take Five", and Pat Metheny's melodic playing highlighted in a trio
format. This is what a Festival should be.

6. John Fogerty - San Francisco Civic Auditorium 8.14

John has made peace with his past and now includes about every Creedence song
you could think of. Like a human juke box, he rolled them out, one thrilling
song after another. To hear "Have You Ever Seen The Rain" and "Wrote A Song
For Everyone" song by the master himself into a headset mic, eyes heavenward
while he strummed his acoustic, was something to treasure.

7. Bruce Hornsby - Yoshi's 

Bruce sold out two weeks at this wonderful club, one solo and one with his hot
new band. Saw a solo show, sitting 10 feet from Bruce as he took requests and
wailed on the piano, making you feel like you were in his living room. My
girlfriend said it felt like you were watching Mozart. And his friend from The
Other Ones, Steve Kimock, joined halfway thru for some beautiful duets. A very
special show.

8. the funky Meters - The Fillmore 5.9

Original Meters Art Neville and George Porter have revitalized the band with
the addition of ex-Neville Bros. guitarist Brian Stoltz and the powerful young
drummer Russell Batiste. These guys poured out the most molten bone-rattling
butt-shaking unrepentant PHUNK you will ever hear for over 3 hours, leaving
you elated and soaked with sweat. Phenomenal

9. Tiny Town/Keb' Mo - The Fillmore 10.9

It was great to see ex-subdudes Tommy Malone and Johnny Ray Allen in this
tight new outfit. Tommy is singing as soulfully as ever (their CD is
wonderful) and, while hard to shake the ghost of the much beloved 'dudes, it
is good they are back on the boards. Keb' Mo, while a little bit sanitized for
my tastes, is an extremely charismatic performer who now covers almost every
blues style extant with taste and skill. Such a talented guy, with great stage
presence.

10. Little Feat - Maritime Hall, SF 10.23

The Maritime Hall is a throwback to the old hippie ballrooms, with roots back
to The Family Dog, and The Feat responded here with a very well played set,
featuring tunes from their most recent release. These guys are so good, it
goes over most people's heads, but the guitar interplay and the rhythm section
are in a world of their own.

SpinyMark in Berkeley

_________________________________________________________________


Subject: NN: Sensor the remix project!
   From: Shawn Kimbro (kimbro@planetc.com>

Hi gang, 

Just wanted to say I appreciate how much everyone has kept our latest
controversy good-natured.  It's actually been enjoyable reading the
different perspectives on the issue.  And quite honestly, I've enjoyed
the remix blow-up too.  I only read one or two that were a bit
mean-spirited, the rest were entertaining and allowed some fairly
revealing personality glimpses.  Thanks especially to Roy for not
reacting in anger or frustration at all the negative comments. I don't
think I could have maintained such candor.   (Although I still think you
should be dangled from a pier and carp-sucked Roy!) (chuckle>

The best friends I've made on this list I met though controversies just
like these.  So hats off to Bill for suggesting the discussion take
place openly instead of through back-channel gossip.  It almost makes
his initial mistake forgivable (grin>.  I agree that we've covered just
about every facet of the issue now, but I wish y'all wouldn't be so
quick to swipe around horse's tails in good natured conversations.

Warm Regards, 
-Shawn
 ____________________Nanci Is My Aeroplane____________________
|                       __       ____         Shawn Kimbro    |
| "There is no reason   | \____o__/_/___|    Morristown, TN   |
|  for anyone to        \(>-----_/_/____]>         ~          |
|  ever be complacent"           `o     |  kimbro@planetc.com |
|____________ http://www.geocities.com/~trailzzone ___________|


_________________________________________________________________


Subject: Re: NN: Lucinda Williams
   From: Codiscout@aol.com

I'd ditto the SOW suggestion, esp. if you don't like Car Wheels.  I have to
confess, I can't imagine NOT loving this disc.  I'm moderately addicted to it.
But different strokes....

Unrelated to anything else, does anyone have a personal archive of past top 10
lists?  I'm always looking for suggestions but have only been on the board for
one iteration.

Thanks


_________________________________________________________________


Subject: NN: Lyle Lovette
   From: "Lorrie Chase" (lchase@webshoppe.net>

Hi everyone.  I wanted to share, so here I am.  Me and a friend of mine went to
Atlanta last
night and saw Lyle Lovette at the Fox.  It was an incredible show!!!  Who shows
up but Allison
Krauss.  Also Francine Reed, who did "Wild Women don't get the Blues".    The
big treat for me
was that Sam Bush was in the "big band" doing his stuff!!!  If Lyle comes your
way, be sure to
check him out.  It is worth every dime.


_________________________________________________________________

Questions about NanciNet?  Send e-mail to bpage@scctel.com