// Earlier this week we returned to the "It's A Hard Life" discussion...
// As Ferg wrote three years ago, proof again that this is Nanci's most
// controversial song.  I've gathered all of the comments from the past
// couple of days into this supplemental digest...
// Enjoy...[BP]

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Subject: Re: NN: Re: Hard Life
   From: TROY ADAM ROEPKE (hhelen@sfsu.edu>

On Mon, 24 May 1999, Tracy Applebaum wrote:
> I'm not saying that it isn't preachy, but does anyone here really disagree 
> with what syhe's saying?  (snip>  Doesn't that 
> make it seem more real than if she just said, "Racism is bad" or something?  

And 'fat-ism' isn't bad?

H

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Subject: Re: NN: Re: Hard Life
   From: o416@erols.com

Come on, we're talking about possibly the skinniest woman in America 
here, one who is sometimes called "Olive Oyl" by her friends--we all 
look fat to her.

TROY ADAM ROEPKE wrote:
> 
> And 'fat-ism' isn't bad?

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Subject: Re: NN: Re: Hard Life
   From: "comp" (mikebarrett@comp.netlineuk.net>

Skinny?  Olive Oyl?

I guess it depends on your point of view, but I bet Popeye wishes Olive
looked like Nanci!
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Subject: NN: Re: Fat Folk
   From: "Bunny Hutchinson" (cotntail@ewol.com>

...and a word from a long time list lurker....
I've always just felt that Nanci used the term "fat Man", more as "fat cat".
You know, it's still derogatory, but hasn't much to do with the guy's
weight.
Just a life that is "fat" with material things and the power that is so
often wielded
in this country by middle aged, white men.  ( Keep in mind that I'm
generalizing here. )
...but that has always been my take on the meanings hidden in that verse.
back to lurkdom...

Bunny Hutchinson
ICQ UIN 211919
cotntail@ewol.com
bunny_hutchinson@bshsi.com
http://www.ewol.com/cotntail

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Subject: Re: NN: Re: Fat Folk
   From: Shawn Kimbro (kimbro@planetc.com>

But is it appropriate to call another human-being trash?

(feeling a distinct sense of deja vu>
-Shawn

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Subject: Re: NN: Re: Fat Folk
   From: "Tracy Applebaum" (poohbear512@hotmail.com>

Hi all-

I don't know what it is about this "hard Life" thread that had me so vocal, 
but I don't see her word "fat" as derogatory at all--just descriptive.  She 
wanted us to visualize the scene to make it more real, and we can visualize 
it better if we have a physical description of the man in question.  I 
honestly don't see what's wrong with that.

Re:  the "trash" question, I do think she's being a little judgemental of 
the man knowing very little about him, but I've always heard the line as her 
contradicting, as strongly as she can in eight words, the sentiment 
expressed by him.  Like, "He's callijg black people trash but I don't agree 
with that at all."  Besides, it IS kinda trashy to teach otherwise innocent 
children to hate all people with a particular skin color.  If we could throw 
that kind of attitude out with the reash, the world would be a better place, 
IMHO.

Tracy

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Subject: NN: Fat Folk
   From: Bill MacKay (macbill@pacifier.com>

> And 'fat-ism' isn't bad?

Nanci's use of the word 'fat' in this instance doesn't seem
pejorative to me.  The usage just describes the noun 'man'.  I don't
feel as if she is saying "all fat men are bad", or that "fat is
bad".  

She could have used 'short man', I suspect, or 'tall man' or 'white
man'. The incident she describes could very well have occured, and
the man might have been fat. I don't see the problem.

I am a fat man, and I call myself such.  I could describe myself
with the word 'obese' or some other euphemism, but they all mean the
same thing.  I'm avoirdupoisly challenged ;-).

It's not polite to call people fat to their face, and I can't
remember the last time the word was used pejoratively towards me.  
But if I overheard someone saying "he's that fat man over there" to
describe me, I wouldn't feel bad at all unless it was delivered with
scorn or ridicule.

'Fat' is part of who I am.

Bill MacKay
macbill@pacifier.com
Vancouver, Washington

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Subject: Re: NN: Fat Folk
   From: Bill Page (bpage@scctel.com>

Bill McKay wrote:
> Nanci's use of the word 'fat' in this instance doesn't seem
> pejorative to me.  The usage just describes the noun 'man'.  I don't
> feel as if she is saying "all fat men are bad", or that "fat is
> bad".
(snip> 
> I am a fat man, and I call myself such.  I could describe myself
> with the word 'obese' or some other euphemism, but they all mean the
> same thing.  I'm avoirdupoisly challenged ;-).

It's deja vu all over again...one of my first posts to the NanciNet said
basically the same thing Bill just said...

Check out the digest archives for the end of January and first of February, '96
for the complete "fat man" discussions...
        http://brisbin.net/Nanci/archives/arc.html

Bill "still fat, but not as much as I was then!" Page

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Subject: Re: NN: Fat Folk
   From: o416@erols.com

Well, dear hearts, if we examine the manner in a more 
Jimgarrisonish/oliverstonish manner--some of you will remember it was I 
who discovered that Nanci Griffith is not the real Nanci Griffith but 
that Lee Satterfield is--er can ascertain the hidden meanings of the 
phrase "fat man."  First, it should be written "Fat Man" and thus is a 
reference to one of the first A-bombs, one of the two used on Japan at 
the end of WWII.  The second bomb, you'll all remember, was "Little 
Boy."  Nanci never actually uses the phrase Little Boy in the song, but 
dig this--she and Seamus see a boy walking in Belfast--now then, the Fat 
Man is talking to his children--possibly a reference to Little Boy but 
more likely a reference to H-bombs, the descendents of the A-bomb.  Thus 
we see that the song is actually a warning against nuclear prolifiation 
and, strangely enough, a plea to build up our conventional armed forces. 
("They'll go to the window and see him/And they think that white hood 
is all they need.")  Seemingly an odd message from nanci, but then 
remember that LBJ button she wears and the implcit support for the Viet 
Nam war.

There are DEPTHS here, chi;dren, DEPTHS.

Reid "research arranged, reason baffled" Mitchell

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Subject: Re: NN: Fat Folk
   From: Shawn Kimbro (kimbro@planetc.com>

Bill Page wrote:

> It's deja vu all over again...one of my first posts to the NanciNet said
> basically the same thing Bill just said...
> Bill "still fat, but not as much as I was then!" Page

First off, Bill Page is *not* fat.  

Secondly, I was one of those involved in the referenced discussion, and
I'd like to offer an update.  I'm enjoying all the new names and
opinions on the list, so I hope the discussion remains friendly and
continues.  Way back during the war, as I remember it, Kenn Lippert
called me a liberal, left-handed son of a baseball player and Bill Page
admitted membership in some sort of neo-nazi *WASP* society.  Well,
maybe it wasn't *exactly* like that. (grin>  Since then, I've had the
pleasure of sharing concerts, campouts, jam sessions, and
non-politically correct breakfasts with those guys, and we've become
friends. 

That discussion caused me to see the "fat man" issue differently. 
Still, I don't think it's cool to call anyone "trash", no matter what
their political or social outlook.  The racist attitude is garbage and
should be discarded, the person is not.  That's my problem with "Hard
Life."  

Warm Regards, 
-Shawn

 _______________Nanci Is My Aeroplane__________________
|                __       ____         Shawn Kimbro    |
| And I say      | \____o__/_/___|    Morristown, TN   |
| from the back, \(>-----_/_/____]>         ~          |
| "I don't know"          `o     |  kimbro@planetc.com |
|________ http://www.geocities.com/~trailzzone ________|

// Yes I am, unfortunately...[BP]


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Subject: Re: NN: Fat Folk
   From: denison@cais.com (Ted Denison)

On Wed, 26 May 1999 16:51:48 -0400, Shawn wrote:

(snip>

>That discussion caused me to see the "fat man" issue differently. 
>Still, I don't think it's cool to call anyone "trash", no matter what
>their political or social outlook.  The racist attitude is garbage and
>should be discarded, the person is not.  That's my problem with "Hard
>Life."  

I think a little context is in order: Nanci has frequently referred to
herself as "West Texas Trailer Trash."  It seems to me she's nailing
his racist attitude and not discarding his humanity.

Ted Denison

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Subject: Re: NN: Fat Folk
  From: John Alvord (jalvo@mbay.net>

On Wed, 26 May 1999, Shawn Kimbro wrote:

> That discussion caused me to see the "fat man" issue differently. 
> Still, I don't think it's cool to call anyone "trash", no matter what
> their political or social outlook.  The racist attitude is garbage and
> should be discarded, the person is not.  That's my problem with "Hard
> Life."  

Maybe the song itself exposes the contradiction... by preaching against
prejudice and being prejudiced at the same time.

   "I am the root of all evil..."

But on the other hand.... the song's speaker isn't PREjudiced, she is
actually JUDGING a man's actions and words. In fact that is a lot about
what makes me unhappy with the song... How can you know someone and judge
them on a tiny fragment of time? It is just too Puritan for me. Hearing
Nanci throw the first stone just sounds unchristian.

john alvord

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Subject: Re: NN: Fat Folk
   From: "BUNNY HUTCHINSON" (cotntail@mail.ewol.com>

Hi All,

The part of this discussion where I'm lost is from the way I hear it, Nanci is
simply qouting the "fat-man", "whose callin' black people *trash* to his
children".   Of course, it's not nice to call someone trash....that's the point
of the song, for heaven's sake. Pointing out how *we* teach our children these
prejudices and hatreds...Or how we can instead teach them love and tolerance. 
We have a choice.

Bunny Hutchinson
cotntail@ewol.com

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Subject: Re: NN: Fat Folk
   From: VickiStein@aol.com

Hi,

I'm relatively new to NanciNet, but I must say that I find the banter lively 
on occasion and usually quite interesting....

My 2 cents worth on the "Fat Man" ~ 

I tend to agree with Bunny.  As a writer, and I am only speakin' from my 
humble perspective here, I feel that Nanci uses the adjective "fat" to press 
her point, in a couple of ways.  It's a blatantly offensive descriptive, used 
to  awaken us to our own shortcomings as we so often self-righteously 
proclaim what we (in our own limited ways) perceive to be weaknesses in 
others.  It's about projection, it's about fears, it's about calling us to 
admit our weaknesses.  It's about taking the moat out of our own eye before 
we even attempt to remove the sliver from our brothers'/sisters' eyes.   
(Thank you, God.) And, metaphorically, I think that she refers, in this 
instance, to "fat" as an excess that limits us from experiencing the 
truth...fat, in this case, being ignorance or pumped-up pride in assuming 
(without deeper search) that  our opinions (shrouded in the fear of the 
unknown), perhaps based on the pragmatism of our fathers and their fathers, 
make it "so.."

If we shed our limitations, we are limitless in the way that we can love....

Nanci's musings, on the other hand, speak to me about aiming for the 
mark...about evolving ourselves and our actions to the greater good of all...

Just my thoughts, hope I offended no one...

Peace, 

Vicki

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Subject: Re: NN: Fat Folk
   From: "Bunny Hutchinson" (cotntail@ewol.com>

Hi Vicki,

When I grow up, I hope I can be as eloquent as you.  : ^)
Thanks for saying a lot the things that I didn't know how to.

(BTW, I'm 48 now....will I have to wait much longer to grow up?)

Bunny Hutchinson

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Subject: Re: NN: Fat Folk
  From: John Alvord (jalvo@mbay.net>

On Wed, 26 May 1999, BUNNY HUTCHINSON wrote:

> The part of this discussion where I'm lost is from the way I hear it, Nanci is simply qouting
the "fat-man", "whose
> callin' black people *trash* to his children".   Of course,
> it's not nice to call someone trash....that's the point of the song, for heaven's sake.

The lyric goes on to say "He's the only trash that I see".  john

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Subject: NN: The Fat Man Question
   From: o416@erols.com

OK, so nobody thought my Fat Man and Little Boy spoof was as amusing as 
I did.  This happens to me all the time.  But let me see if I can move 
the discussion along, even shuffle it offstage, by adding to the 
literary questions already posed by earlier commenters.

The first two verses of "Hard Life" are written in the "historically 
present."  That is to say, that the singer is remembered events but 
describing them as though they're happening right now.  So "In a 
cafeteria line in Chicago/the fat man in front of me/is calling black 
people trash to his children/and he's the only trash her I see/And I'm 
thinking this man wears a white hood...."

The singer is describing her perceptions and reactions AT THE TIME OF 
THE SCENE.  Her visceral reaction after hearing the man apply the word 
"trash" is to apply it to him.  And then she goes on to visualize the 
guy as a Kluxer.  "I'm thinking this man wear a white hood"--"I'm 
thinking"--ie, right now, in the cafeteria line, not later while writing 
the song.  It amazes me that we netters have focused so much on the 
words "fat" and "trash" and yet seem to accept that the bigot is a 
Kluxer--if every bigot joined the Klan, it would be enormous.  The 
questions isn't (as recently posed) whether all Kluxers are fat, it's 
whether this man is a Kluxer--and the writer is very carefully to say 
that the singer is "thinking" at that moment that he is, not that the 
man actually is.  It's part of the emotional reaction to the scene.  
It'd all be different in the past tense--"the fat man in front of me was 
calling black people trash to his children yet he was the only trash 
there I saw."  There's all the difference in the world between 
describing your reaction to something at the time and presenting your 
considered judgment on it.

Reid "just earned an MFA in Creative Writing and haven't a thing to wear 
with it" Mitchell

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Subject: Re: NN: The Fat Man Question
   From: Shawn Kimbro (kimbro@planetc.com>

Reid Mitchell writes:

> The first two verses of "Hard Life" are written in the "historically
> present."  That is to say, that the singer is remembered events but
> describing them as though they're happening right now. .....

You know, it really grates me when someone interjects common sense into
a really good argument.

(grin>
-Shawn  (Who'll be working on a better response while sipping RC Colas
on Beale Street this weekend.)

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Subject: Re: NN: The Fat Man Question
   From: o416@erols.com

Shawn Kimbro wrote:

> You know, it really grates me when someone interjects common sense into
> a really good argument.

How about when they discuss the historical present while calling it the 
historically present AND getting the verb form wrong?

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// And I think that has been enough on this suject for a while, 
// don't you think so?  [BP]


Questions about NanciNet?  Send e-mail to bpage@scctel.com